Studies that show that germ-free animals are sick
#11
(01-15-2017, 08:32 AM)Dadson Wrote: The reason the mice in the study you linked were unhealthy is probably because they grew up completely germ free, which certainly changed how their immune system developed, which then had a lot of downstream effects.

Here's a post on germ free mice. They are insanely insulin sensitive and thus die of starvation extremely fast.

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2...-fart.html

Also, we must remember that these descriptions of the mice - like that they act autistic - are merely interpretations of the researchers, and not objective fact.

Considering we know the harms of endotoxin, and that we also know that mice with no internal flora live longer, I for one am comfortable destroying the flora that live in me.

Personally, I plan on removing most of my gut flora with tetracyclines and a low dose of bleach, and then repopulating it with lactobacillie.

http://itsthewooo.blogspot.com/2015/03/w...iment.html

A problem with killing gut flora is that opportunistic harmful flora can take over after you cease the killing of flora.

Did not take time to reply last time I read this but now I read it again, I think your post is completely stupid and maybe even dangerous, and I don't think you have really read the things posted. There are several studies about animals being germ-free and having issues, I don't think that it's a problem of nutrition even if in some cases it is.
Moreover, we are symbiotic beings and living in this world and we cannot be sterile as we are not lab animals.

There are several studies that show we need enough diversity of gut flora to prevent opportunistic bacteria, trying to sterilize with bleach and antibiotics is not a good solution, especially if you plan to take only few strain afterwards. Killing that much bacteria could lead to Herxheimer reaction and cytokine storm.

Could be necessary to do this for few people with very compromised gut but I'm not even sure, and I think something like Shank Pralakshalana would be enough, why even use bleach...
#12
(02-12-2017, 10:49 PM)Arborescence Wrote:
(01-15-2017, 08:32 AM)Dadson Wrote: The reason the mice in the study you linked were unhealthy is probably because they grew up completely germ free, which certainly changed how their immune system developed, which then had a lot of downstream effects.

Here's a post on germ free mice. They are insanely insulin sensitive and thus die of starvation extremely fast.

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2...-fart.html

Also, we must remember that these descriptions of the mice - like that they act autistic - are merely interpretations of the researchers, and not objective fact.

Considering we know the harms of endotoxin, and that we also know that mice with no internal flora live longer, I for one am comfortable destroying the flora that live in me.

Personally, I plan on removing most of my gut flora with tetracyclines and a low dose of bleach, and then repopulating it with lactobacillie.

http://itsthewooo.blogspot.com/2015/03/w...iment.html

A problem with killing gut flora is that opportunistic harmful flora can take over after you cease the killing of flora.

Did not take time to reply last time I read this but now I read it again, I think your post is completely stupid and maybe even dangerous, and I don't think you have really read the things posted. There are several studies about animals being germ-free and having issues, I don't think that it's a problem of nutrition even if in some cases it is.
Moreover, we are symbiotic beings and living in this world and we cannot be sterile as we are not lab animals.

There are several studies that show we need enough diversity of gut flora to prevent opportunistic bacteria, trying to sterilize with bleach and antibiotics is not a good solution, especially if you plan to take only few strain afterwards. Killing that much bacteria could lead to Herxheimer reaction and cytokine storm.

Could be necessary to do this for few people with very compromised gut but I'm not even sure, and I think something like Shank Pralakshalana would be enough, why even use bleach...

Don't take my posts too seriously. I'm almost always talking about in theory rather than practice.

I think my points about rats developing with no germs (and thus not developing normally) still stands.

However, I agree that bleach and tetracyclines would probably be unhelpful. 

But I must stress that the dose of bleach would be extremely low. It's not like you'd be swigging clorox haha, she's talking about extremely diluted amounts (and she apparently felt a lot better from it).

I think your bad experience with antibiotics also has a part to play with you opinion on this.

I'll take your advice and reread it as unbiased as possible.

Also what must be remembered is that most gut biota depletion is achieved using tetracycline's. It's not clean. The tetracycline's themselves have effects independent of removing the gut flora.
#13
(02-20-2017, 12:04 AM)Arborescence Wrote:
(02-18-2017, 04:40 AM)Dadson Wrote:
(02-12-2017, 10:49 PM)Arborescence Wrote:
(01-15-2017, 08:32 AM)Dadson Wrote: The reason the mice in the study you linked were unhealthy is probably because they grew up completely germ free, which certainly changed how their immune system developed, which then had a lot of downstream effects.

Here's a post on germ free mice. They are insanely insulin sensitive and thus die of starvation extremely fast.

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2...-fart.html

Also, we must remember that these descriptions of the mice - like that they act autistic - are merely interpretations of the researchers, and not objective fact.

Considering we know the harms of endotoxin, and that we also know that mice with no internal flora live longer, I for one am comfortable destroying the flora that live in me.

Personally, I plan on removing most of my gut flora with tetracyclines and a low dose of bleach, and then repopulating it with lactobacillie.

http://itsthewooo.blogspot.com/2015/03/w...iment.html

A problem with killing gut flora is that opportunistic harmful flora can take over after you cease the killing of flora.

Did not take time to reply last time I read this but now I read it again, I think your post is completely stupid and maybe even dangerous, and I don't think you have really read the things posted. There are several studies about animals being germ-free and having issues, I don't think that it's a problem of nutrition even if in some cases it is.
Moreover, we are symbiotic beings and living in this world and we cannot be sterile as we are not lab animals.

There are several studies that show we need enough diversity of gut flora to prevent opportunistic bacteria, trying to sterilize with bleach and antibiotics is not a good solution, especially if you plan to take only few strain afterwards. Killing that much bacteria could lead to Herxheimer reaction and cytokine storm.

Could be necessary to do this for few people with very compromised gut but I'm not even sure, and I think something like Shank Pralakshalana would be enough, why even use bleach...

Don't take my posts too seriously. I'm almost always talking about in theory rather than practice.

I think my points about rats developing with no germs (and thus not developing normally) still stands.

However, I agree that bleach and tetracyclines would probably be unhelpful. 

But I must stress that the dose of bleach would be extremely low. It's not like you'd be swigging clorox haha, she's talking about extremely diluted amounts (and she apparently felt a lot better from it).

I think your bad experience with antibiotics also has a part to play with you opinion on this.

I'll take your advice and reread it as unbiased as possible.

Also what must be remembered is that most gut biota depletion is achieved using tetracycline's. It's not clean. The tetracycline's themselves have effects independent of removing the gut flora.

Sorry if I was a bit aggressive, I find it hard sometimes to see people in this community complaining often about issues relating to their gut but never thinking about it, and even ditching evidences that Peat may be a bit too protectionist about it. Not talking about the dogmas on RPF, guess they will tell you to use steroids with DMSO and rub it on your belly.

Quote:I think your bad experience with antibiotics also has a part to play with you opinion on this.


Also what must be remembered is that most gut biota depletion is achieved using tetracycline's. It's not clean. The tetracycline's themselves have effects independent of removing the gut flora.

Yes, that's true, but it's also the experience of tons of people I've seen, when I see people on the RPF and Danny Roddy advising to pop it as if it was candy, I am a bit cautious.


I think that a gut biome analysis might be necessary sometimes to know what kind of antibiotics to use. Things like Cascara that Peat advises seem good because they increase "good" bacteria.

You're good.

Yeah I definitely agree, these aren't toys to play around with, they have very serious consequences and ramifications.

I'm guilty of treating these things like toys as well, which I'll stop doing...

Killing our entire gut biome and expecting it to stay that way is ridiculous. I think having no biome at all would be better, but we live in the real world. When you kill your gut biome, whatever survives takes over and you're generally worse off. That's what wooo was talking about, it's not about the number or species (usually), but about the diversity of your biome that matters.

It's better to have a large number of different species competing in your stomach, have them fight each other rather than you.

I think a fecal transplant has huge promise. Who gives a fuck how weird it seems, it works (generally).

"guess they will tell you to use steroids with DMSO and rub it on your belly."

Hahaha so true
#14
Could not agree more.

The most important now in my opinion would be to lower "bad" bacteria and increase "good" bacteria as much as possible and try to stay this way and keep the upper gut as sterile as possible. I have seen Peat advising some probiotics recently so I think he uses these ideas of germ-free animals mainly to show how gut health is important and how much it can change the health of people when mainstream medicine is barely aware of it.

Not sure what to think about fibers and prebiotics for now, I cannot digest or take any of it without getting sick and inflammation (leaky gut/persorption) but I know a lot of people and cultures that seem very healthy while eating it. Maybe with a better biome that is quite anti-inflammatory you could eat it without much problems and even with health improvements since it will increase butyrate and other pro-metabolic things in your colon. Some people seem to feel a lot much better. I guess it depends of a lot of factors like epigenetics as well. I remember Peat said that lidocaine changed his gut a lot by unmethylating it, I wonder if a FMT could work in the same kind of fashion.

I have yet to see any fruitarian centenarians, they all seem to eat starch and fibers, not just fruits and sugar. Still have a lot of things to try and improve there, I think that VoS ideas about the epithelium and blood perfusion are very interesting as well: http://raypeatforums.org/showthread.php?tid=234
#15
The Hoban article says the rats were fed the same diet after going germ-free. I didn't read the entire article, but it's possible the germ-free rats had a higher metabolic rate and were suffering from a calorie deficiency, or nutrient deficiency. Running out of food makes me anxious, and lowers my activity level. Also, the antibiotic cocktail provided to the germ-free rats was a pretty toxic mix, which would have resulted in elevated stress hormones. Safer antibiotics for shorter duration would have had a different outcome. If a person wanted to debug the study some more, they'd research the toxicity of each antibiotic in the cocktail, and the effects on the measured stress hormones. And they'd research the diet in more detail, Teklad Global 18% Protein Rodent diet, Product code 2018S
#16
(02-21-2017, 09:50 PM)Dadson Wrote: I think a fecal transplant has huge promise. Who gives a fuck how weird it seems, it works (generally).

I wouldn't bother. I've had one and it didn't do anything, apart from lead me to the conclusion that microbiome 'imbalance' theory of functional gut disorders is total bunk.
  


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