Studies that show that germ-free animals are sick
#1
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threa...ost-180492

http://www.gutmicrobiotaforhealth.com/en...lantation/

http://www.gutmicrobiotaforhealth.com/en...al-cancer/

I like what Peat says about the gut but not complete at all in my opinion.
#2
(11-02-2016, 05:38 PM)Arborescence Wrote: https://raypeatforum.com/community/threa...ost-180492

http://www.gutmicrobiotaforhealth.com/en...lantation/

http://www.gutmicrobiotaforhealth.com/en...al-cancer/

I like what Peat says about the gut but not complete at all in my opinion.

I think Ray Peat would agree that our knowledge of the gut is not complete at all, and he doesn't write about it much, perhaps for that reason. 

I have my own views on the gut, which derive from the work Elie Metchnikoff in the 1800s.

In my experience, I find the gut needs to be extremely clean without bloating or odor, similar to the gut of a newborn that is fed breast milk. This is not truly "germ-free" because the gut will be populated by lactobacillie that are aerobic and thrive in very acidic, high redox environments, and are anti-inflammatory. 

I find it is possible for my gut to be free of harmful putrefactive germs, without odor and bloating. But I need to be very careful about what goes in, and also very careful about making sure that digesta is emptied out rapidly. I find that constipation for even a few hours allows the putrefactive bacteria to grow, as observed by odor.

kefiran is unique food substance that Metchnikoff studied, which was discovered thousands of years ago, but the kefir grains have been passed on from generation to generation. Kefiran has been tested extensively in Russia and found to be completely safe, even for infants born prematurely, who have no ability to digest anything else.
#3
Clarke et al[141] found that male germ free mice, unlike females, display a significant elevation in the hippocampal concentration of 5-HT and its metabolite, compared with conventionally colonized control animals.
#4
The reason the mice in the study you linked were unhealthy is probably because they grew up completely germ free, which certainly changed how their immune system developed, which then had a lot of downstream effects.

Here's a post on germ free mice. They are insanely insulin sensitive and thus die of starvation extremely fast.

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2...-fart.html

Also, we must remember that these descriptions of the mice - like that they act autistic - are merely interpretations of the researchers, and not objective fact.

Considering we know the harms of endotoxin, and that we also know that mice with no internal flora live longer, I for one am comfortable destroying the flora that live in me.

Personally, I plan on removing most of my gut flora with tetracyclines and a low dose of bleach, and then repopulating it with lactobacillie.

http://itsthewooo.blogspot.com/2015/03/w...iment.html

A problem with killing gut flora is that opportunistic harmful flora can take over after you cease the killing of flora.
#5
(01-15-2017, 08:32 AM)Dadson Wrote: The reason the mice in the study you linked were unhealthy is probably because they grew up completely germ free, which certainly changed how their immune system developed, which then had a lot of downstream effects.

Here's a post on germ free mice. They are insanely insulin sensitive and thus die of starvation extremely fast.

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2...-fart.html

Also, we must remember that these descriptions of the mice - like that they act autistic - are merely interpretations of the researchers, and not objective fact.

Considering we know the harms of endotoxin, and that we also know that mice with no internal flora live longer, I for one am comfortable destroying the flora that live in me.

Personally, I plan on removing most of my gut flora with tetracyclines and a low dose of bleach, and then repopulating it with lactobacillie.

http://itsthewooo.blogspot.com/2015/03/w...iment.html

A problem with killing gut flora is that opportunistic harmful flora can take over after you cease the killing of flora.

Bleach is a strong oxidant. It's not safe except in the context of treating life-threatening malaria.

I find the safe way to reduce flora in the gut is frequent rectal infusions of warm coffee and slightly hypertonic saline. It's been used at least since WWI, when a nurse discovered it ameliorated the pain of battlefield injuries, and maintained blood volume.
My avatar: William Blake, Vision of Strength
[img]http://i.imgur.com/7sD2Hod.jpg[/img]
#6
(01-17-2017, 05:28 PM)VoS Wrote:
(01-15-2017, 08:32 AM)Dadson Wrote: The reason the mice in the study you linked were unhealthy is probably because they grew up completely germ free, which certainly changed how their immune system developed, which then had a lot of downstream effects.

Here's a post on germ free mice. They are insanely insulin sensitive and thus die of starvation extremely fast.

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2...-fart.html

Also, we must remember that these descriptions of the mice - like that they act autistic - are merely interpretations of the researchers, and not objective fact.

Considering we know the harms of endotoxin, and that we also know that mice with no internal flora live longer, I for one am comfortable destroying the flora that live in me.

Personally, I plan on removing most of my gut flora with tetracyclines and a low dose of bleach, and then repopulating it with lactobacillie.

http://itsthewooo.blogspot.com/2015/03/w...iment.html

A problem with killing gut flora is that opportunistic harmful flora can take over after you cease the killing of flora.

Bleach is a strong oxidant. It's not safe except in the context of treating life-threatening malaria.

I find the safe way to reduce flora in the gut is frequent rectal infusions of warm coffee and slightly hypertonic saline. It's been used at least since WWI, when a nurse discovered it ameliorated the pain of battlefield injuries, and maintained blood volume.

Yeah you're right. I wouldn't recommend it to others. I probably won't do it myself.

I'm not sure how I feel about enemas, they seem to have benefits but at the same time I'm not sure if our body is meant to have that done to it.

You're a fan of kefir right? I think that's an excellent strategy and will probably be drinking lots of that soon.
#7
(01-18-2017, 01:06 AM)Dadson Wrote:
(01-17-2017, 05:28 PM)VoS Wrote:
(01-15-2017, 08:32 AM)Dadson Wrote: The reason the mice in the study you linked were unhealthy is probably because they grew up completely germ free, which certainly changed how their immune system developed, which then had a lot of downstream effects.

Here's a post on germ free mice. They are insanely insulin sensitive and thus die of starvation extremely fast.

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2...-fart.html

Also, we must remember that these descriptions of the mice - like that they act autistic - are merely interpretations of the researchers, and not objective fact.

Considering we know the harms of endotoxin, and that we also know that mice with no internal flora live longer, I for one am comfortable destroying the flora that live in me.

Personally, I plan on removing most of my gut flora with tetracyclines and a low dose of bleach, and then repopulating it with lactobacillie.

http://itsthewooo.blogspot.com/2015/03/w...iment.html

A problem with killing gut flora is that opportunistic harmful flora can take over after you cease the killing of flora.

Bleach is a strong oxidant. It's not safe except in the context of treating life-threatening malaria.

I find the safe way to reduce flora in the gut is frequent rectal infusions of warm coffee and slightly hypertonic saline. It's been used at least since WWI, when a nurse discovered it ameliorated the pain of battlefield injuries, and maintained blood volume.

Yeah you're right. I wouldn't recommend it to others. I probably won't do it myself.

I'm not sure how I feel about enemas, they seem to have benefits but at the same time I'm not sure if our body is meant to have that done to it.

You're a fan of kefir right? I think that's an excellent strategy and will probably be drinking lots of that soon.

Yes, kefir and MCT oil, well blended with egg yolk, has had a very good effect for me in reducing gut flora, and repopulating with the lactobacillus.

Both the Edwin Smith Papyrus (c.1600 BC) and the Ebers Papyrus (c. 1550 BC) -- two of the earliest known medical documents -- mention enemas in detail. Ancient Greek writings corroborate the Egyptian preoccupation with colonic cleanliness.
My avatar: William Blake, Vision of Strength
[img]http://i.imgur.com/7sD2Hod.jpg[/img]
#8
(01-18-2017, 02:30 AM)VoS Wrote:
(01-18-2017, 01:06 AM)Dadson Wrote:
(01-17-2017, 05:28 PM)VoS Wrote:
(01-15-2017, 08:32 AM)Dadson Wrote: The reason the mice in the study you linked were unhealthy is probably because they grew up completely germ free, which certainly changed how their immune system developed, which then had a lot of downstream effects.

Here's a post on germ free mice. They are insanely insulin sensitive and thus die of starvation extremely fast.

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2...-fart.html

Also, we must remember that these descriptions of the mice - like that they act autistic - are merely interpretations of the researchers, and not objective fact.

Considering we know the harms of endotoxin, and that we also know that mice with no internal flora live longer, I for one am comfortable destroying the flora that live in me.

Personally, I plan on removing most of my gut flora with tetracyclines and a low dose of bleach, and then repopulating it with lactobacillie.

http://itsthewooo.blogspot.com/2015/03/w...iment.html

A problem with killing gut flora is that opportunistic harmful flora can take over after you cease the killing of flora.

Bleach is a strong oxidant. It's not safe except in the context of treating life-threatening malaria.

I find the safe way to reduce flora in the gut is frequent rectal infusions of warm coffee and slightly hypertonic saline. It's been used at least since WWI, when a nurse discovered it ameliorated the pain of battlefield injuries, and maintained blood volume.

Yeah you're right. I wouldn't recommend it to others. I probably won't do it myself.

I'm not sure how I feel about enemas, they seem to have benefits but at the same time I'm not sure if our body is meant to have that done to it.

You're a fan of kefir right? I think that's an excellent strategy and will probably be drinking lots of that soon.

Yes, kefir and MCT oil, well blended with egg yolk, has had a very good effect for me in reducing gut flora, and repopulating with the lactobacillus.

Both the Edwin Smith Papyrus (c.1600 BC) and the Ebers Papyrus (c. 1550 BC) -- two of the earliest known medical documents -- mention enemas in detail. Ancient Greek writings corroborate the Egyptian preoccupation with colonic cleanliness.

Interesting...

Pranarupa talked about yogis doing various cleanses using saltwater or specific herbs.
#9
The problem with kefir is that it contains a lot of histamine producing bacteria, probably one of the reasons why I don't tolerate it well at all.

I don't know if trying to sterilize the gut with antibiotics is a good idea at all. It has been shown that reducing the variety of bacteria in the gut may lead to problems.
#10
Sterility is the absence of matter. We must remember that bacteria (good or bad) is there to re-enforce our metabolism.

Much like trauma is the Bread of Life.
  


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