Pathogen Infection is the Cause of Most Illness (TYW)
#1
This is a continuation of Zach's questions from 9e10's Log Threadand Drareg's question from Quack Discussion. I don't want to derail those threads further, especially since their questions share similar nature (pathogenic infections).

For Zach, I was diagnosed with many-years-long Staph infections and Urinary Track infections. Basically I had to take herbals with some methylation supplements on first month, herbals and betaine HCL and methylation and hormonal supplements on 2nd month, methylation and mitochondria supplements on 3rd month, mitochondria supplements on 4th month. Now is the 5th month and I don't take anymore supplements (I can continue mitochondria supplements if I want to, it's completely optional).

I also have to give up staying late at night since the start of the treatment. Circadian rhythm is important for the body to heal properly. So no more staying late. Reducing blue light exposure after sunset, instaling flux on PC, replace light blubs with LED 1200K bulbs, wearing blue light blocker goggles  etc. Oh yeah those things help me sleep like babies.

Right now I'm in the "balancing-and-tonifying" stage which takes many months to heal. After "purgation" stage of the infection, the immune system gets stronger but very dysregulated / unmodulated. In Western Medicine they call it "th1 dominance". But as long as I eat relatively complete-nutriant food (little PUFA, obvisously), keep my circadian rhythm fixed and have a low stress lifestyle (no more late night partying or alcohol consumption something like that) the immune will eventually balance out. I also eat more polyphenols food like blueberries, blackberries, pineapples, cloves and cinnamon seasonings (not too much!) since polyphenols help modulate immune system.

Th1 dominance means that I currently have way more food sensitivity than usual. But that'd go away.

My IBS is fading away, I no longer have seborrheic dermatitis itchy scalps and flakey skins all over my face, no more adrenal fatigue symptoms, I don't have to eat high calories to maintain high metabolism, anymore. Hair stopped falling out like crazy, although it's weird now in some areas the hair grows very long and thicker but at the some other areas it's thinning more. The immune system is still whacked at the moment.

And yes, eventually I can eat more food that I previously can't tolerate.
#2
For Drareg:

(10-07-2017, 04:45 PM)Drareg Wrote: These things are relevant but extremely difficult to pin point with current technology,bacteria are incredible,their capacity for horizontal gene transfer says it all.
The problem is with bacteris inventive capacity for change I don’t see how Chinese medicine has this under control.

I’m curious as to why you don’t think a low fat,low pufa coherent metabolism doesn’t take care of most bacteria via NADPH oxidase?

First of all, pathogen infection is not just bacteria. It's also virus, protozoa, prion, fungus, etc. You can google "is virus pathogen" to confirm.

Second, it's not that simple, not all pathogens are the same. they have different strain, strength, damage, resilience. High metabolism can take care of flu, cold and other regular sickness but some requires interventions (herbs / antibiotic) or the infection will linger forever and do crazy internal damages.

If a person gets Mad Cow disease, can his high metabolism take care of that by sleeping it off with fever for 2 weeks then the disease disappears? Nope.

If a person gets AIDS, can he sleep it off with fever for 2 weeks then the disease disappears? Nope.

If a person gets Herpes, can he sleep it off with fever for 2 weeks then the disease disappears? Nope.

Lyme disease, feel free to read this RPF thread about Lyme Disease by Peaters themselves. 10+ years long, 14+ years long etc.

Some more deadly pathogens: Avian flu (60% death of sufferers), Ebola & Ziki (regardless of the controversy regarding the creation of those viruses), flesh eating Necrotizing fasciitis.

During old wars, when a solder got struck on his limps most likely those limps had to be amputated otherwise the infection would have spread through other organs and became deadly to him. No more after antibiotic, though.

So it's not that simple. High metabolism alone can't really take care of those pathogens. I wish it were that easy. Sleep it off with high fever and chicken soup for 2 weeks and the sickness goes away.
#3
(10-09-2017, 12:27 PM)Strongbad Wrote: For Drareg:

(10-07-2017, 04:45 PM)Drareg Wrote: These things are relevant but extremely difficult to pin point with current technology,bacteria are incredible,their capacity for horizontal gene transfer says it all.
The problem is with bacteris inventive capacity for change I don’t see how Chinese medicine has this under control.

I’m curious as to why you don’t think a low fat,low pufa coherent metabolism doesn’t take care of most bacteria via NADPH oxidase?

First of all, pathogen infection is not just bacteria. It's also virus, protozoa, prion, fungus, etc. You can google "is virus pathogen" to confirm.

Second, it's not that simple, not all pathogens are the same. they have different strain, strength, damage, resilience. High metabolism can take care of flu, cold and other regular sickness but some requires interventions (herbs / antibiotic) or the infection will linger forever and do crazy internal damages.

If a person gets Mad Cow disease, can his high metabolism take care of that by sleeping it off with fever for 2 weeks then the disease disappears? Nope.

If a person gets AIDS, can he sleep it off with fever for 2 weeks then the disease disappears? Nope.

If a person gets Herpes, can he sleep it off with fever for 2 weeks then the disease disappears? Nope.

Lyme disease, feel free to read this RPF thread about Lyme Disease by Peaters themselves. 10+ years long, 14+ years long etc.

Some more deadly pathogens: Avian flu (60% death of sufferers), Ebola & Ziki (regardless of the controversy regarding the creation of those viruses), flesh eating Necrotizing fasciitis.

During old wars, when a solder got struck on his limps most likely those limps had to be amputated otherwise the infection would have spread through other organs and became deadly to him. No more after antibiotic, though.

So it's not that simple. High metabolism alone can't really take care of those pathogens. I wish it were that easy. Sleep it off with high fever and chicken soup for 2 weeks and the sickness goes away.

I get this about infection,so does Peat,Peat doesn’t claim to have a  cure for everything nor everlasting life.
Metabolism will do nothing against a meteorite from the ski or bus hitting you either. My point always is,environment is control as much as you think you are.

What does Chinese’s medicine do for the issues mentioned? Your telling me Chinese’s medicine has cures from mad cow disease,avian flu,Ebola etc 

Also you would have to show those with healthy metabolism are more susceptible to said viruses you mention ,keep in mind many people don’t  get ebola during an outbreak,or avian flu,Explain this.....
#4
(10-09-2017, 12:37 PM)Drareg Wrote: I get this about infection,so does Peat,Peat doesn’t claim to have a  cure for everything nor everlasting life.
Metabolism will do nothing against a meteorite from the ski or bus hitting you either. My point always is,environment is control as much as you think you are.

What does Chinese’s medicine do for the issues mentioned? Your telling me Chinese’s medicine has cures from mad cow disease,avian flu,Ebola etc 

Also you would have to show those with healthy metabolism are more susceptible to said viruses you mention ,keep in mind many people don’t  get ebola during an outbreak,or avian flu,Explain this.....

Of course, that's why I no longer think Ray Peat has answers to everything health. Not only Peat but also the entire western medicine as a whole don't really take pathogens seriously until in recent years. 

I agree with you that in some degrees environment dictate us. Living in highly polluted cities like Beijing, or working 12 hours a day with high stress level, lack of sleep and relaxation..

Are Chinese or eastern medicines the real answer to everything? No. They're only good at purging pathogens away but when it comes to "balancing and tonifying" western supplements do much better.

NOOOOO I didn't give you Mad Cow, avian flu, ebola as sickness that Chinese / eastern medicine can cure. I give them as examples that your "high metabolism can cure all pathogen" argument is not entire true.

Mad Cow is relatively new sickness due to the way cows are raised in modern times. They eat their own remains, they eat their own shit etc. Grass fed cows don't have mad cows diseases and in old times cows are grass fed.

Avian flu, Ebola, Zika etc. can be contained by QUARANTINE. Not permitted to travel, being put in special camp with special suits / masks and other containment procedures etc. Geezus, man read some news! You're an adult, a smart guy. You can read more about these yourself about pathogen illness in general. I'm not babysitting you with information all the time.
#5
Thanks for replying! Can you give me a few examples of types of herbals and mitochondria supps you used?

Theres a doc named Gabe Mirkin who has written a bit on some forms of bacteria that are tiny pathogens that take up residence all over the body, joints especially but brain, nervous system etc. They are almost impossible to eradicate and cause all sorts of havoc long term. I have a type of auto immune arthritus called anklosing spondylitis that diet alone seems to reduce but not cure. I have read about some pretty intensive antibiotic protocols that could potentially help but im apprehesive to try because of side effects. Chinese medicine intrigues me because you are saying basically that it could cure these same issues.
#6
Interesting trivia for you.

Ray Peat loves Cascara for anti-cancer property as he mentioned here (raypeat.com article so it's straight off his mouth):

Quote:During the years just before the new drug was approved, there were several publications reporting that emodin, the main active factor in cascara, a traditional laxative, had some remarkable antiviral and anticancer activities. Other studies were reporting that it protected against some known mutagens and carcinogens. Less than 3 months before approving Zelnorm, the FDA announced its Final rule [Federal Register: May 9, 2002 (Volume 67, Number 90)] “Certain Additional Over-the-Counter Drug Category II and III Active Ingredients.” “the stimulant laxative ingredients aloe (including aloe extract and aloe flower extract) and cascara sagrada (including casanthranol, cascara fluidextract aromatic, cascara sagrada bark, cascara sagrada extract, and cascara sagrada fluidextract),” determining that they “are not generally recognized as safe and effective or are misbranded. This final rule is part of FDA's ongoing OTC drug product review. This rule is effective November 5, 2002.”

So he like cascara mainly because of "emodin", an anti cancer properties.

Guess what? Emodin is also highly present in herbs used in Chinese medicine: rhubarb (Rheum palmatum L.) and Radix rhizoma Rhei.

Emodin, aloe-emodin and rhein inhibit migration and invasion in human tongue cancer SCC-4 cells through the inhibition of gene expression of matrix metalloproteinase-9.

Emodin-provoked oxidative stress induces apoptosis in human colon cancer HCT116 cells through a p53-mitochondrial apoptotic pathway.

So in a way, occasionally there're similarities between Ray Peat and TCM, more than you realize.

More and more western medicine starts to adopt eastern herbs to get rid of infections. Lots of ncbi articles highlight this trend in year 2000 and up.
#7
(10-09-2017, 01:20 PM)Zachs Wrote: Thanks for replying! Can you give me a few examples of types of herbals and mitochondria supps you used?  

Theres a doc named Gabe Mirkin who has written a bit on some forms of bacteria that are tiny pathogens that take up residence all over the body, joints especially but brain, nervous system etc.  They are almost impossible to eradicate and cause all sorts of havoc long term.  I have a type of auto immune arthritus called anklosing spondylitis that diet alone seems to reduce but not cure.  I have read about some pretty intensive antibiotic protocols that could potentially help but im apprehesive to try because of side effects.  Chinese medicine intrigues me because you are saying basically that it could cure these same issues.

I apologize Zach, but those herbs and supplements are specific to me, my genetic (I'm south east Asian), where (region) and when (what time of the day) I was born (TCM diagnostic stuff) and the severity of the infection. Things that worked for me will not work with others and most likely create complications that none of us can forsee ahead of time. The dosage also varies per person.

For instance, tyw can take up to 30gr of Betaine HCL per day for 30 days straight to cure his general infection. For me, I can only take 15gr max and the duration was 3 days then 10 days (recurring UTI infections). It took me only a month to take care of staph infection, but for some others it can take up to 3 months. Tyw's is younger, taller and were born in higher latitude (country-wise on the map) than me.

Sorry but I don't want to fall into the trap of giving all-OJ-all-milk-all-sugar advice. People in forum (like RPF for instance) will interpret it differently and can often times go overboard with the advices given to them, then I'll be responsible for it when shit happens. Like that Haidut's high caffeine dosage advice.

I can only share the personal experience of it and the general methodology behind the Chinese Medicine approach compared to Ray Peat. But when it comes to specific stuff and treatment, I have to tread it carefully.

I'm sorry.
#8
(10-09-2017, 01:23 PM)Strongbad Wrote: Interesting trivia for you.

Ray Peat loves Cascara for anti-cancer property as he mentioned here (raypeat.com article so it's straight off his mouth):

Quote:During the years just before the new drug was approved, there were several publications reporting that emodin, the main active factor in cascara, a traditional laxative, had some remarkable antiviral and anticancer activities. Other studies were reporting that it protected against some known mutagens and carcinogens. Less than 3 months before approving Zelnorm, the FDA announced its Final rule [Federal Register: May 9, 2002 (Volume 67, Number 90)] “Certain Additional Over-the-Counter Drug Category II and III Active Ingredients.” “the stimulant laxative ingredients aloe (including aloe extract and aloe flower extract) and cascara sagrada (including casanthranol, cascara fluidextract aromatic, cascara sagrada bark, cascara sagrada extract, and cascara sagrada fluidextract),” determining that they “are not generally recognized as safe and effective or are misbranded. This final rule is part of FDA's ongoing OTC drug product review. This rule is effective November 5, 2002.”

So he like cascara mainly because of "emodin", an anti cancer properties.

Guess what? Emodin is also highly present in herbs used in Chinese medicine: rhubarb (Rheum palmatum L.) and Radix rhizoma Rhei.

Emodin, aloe-emodin and rhein inhibit migration and invasion in human tongue cancer SCC-4 cells through the inhibition of gene expression of matrix metalloproteinase-9.

Emodin-provoked oxidative stress induces apoptosis in human colon cancer HCT116 cells through a p53-mitochondrial apoptotic pathway.

So in a way, occasionally there're similarities between Ray Peat and TCM, more than you realize.

More and more western medicine starts to adopt eastern herbs to get rid of infections. Lots of ncbi articles highlight this trend in year 2000 and up.

I’m sure Chinese medicine has a lot in common with Indian Medicine also.

The quarantine doesn’t cover every contradiction that comes out of these situations,the health of the host also counts,exchange of fluids is not as difficult as people think,some carry these issues without much symptoms.
It’s clear chinese medicine hasn’t tamed bacteria or western medicine,to believe medicine will tame it in our lifetimes or anyone’s is hopeful to say the least,their ability to adapt and change is what I spoke about earlier.
How do we know that the Chinese medicine practitioner is treating the same bacteria as the past?

What does Chinese medicine have for penicilin? Honeysuckle they claim is a cure all for flu,it’s never that simple,if we go reductionist on any food we will find potent benefits in them in some areas.
Peat is mentioning many things from foods for years,there just wasn’t enough known about them to say more,now as it comes out he mentions them,like citrus peels.

So has Chinese medicine cured all of your complaints?
#9
(10-09-2017, 01:43 PM)&Strongbad Wrote:
(10-09-2017, 01:20 PM)Zachs Wrote: Thanks for replying! Can you give me a few examples of types of herbals and mitochondria supps you used?  

Theres a doc named Gabe Mirkin who has written a bit on some forms of bacteria that are tiny pathogens that take up residence all over the body, joints especially but brain, nervous system etc.  They are almost impossible to eradicate and cause all sorts of havoc long term.  I have a type of auto immune arthritus called anklosing spondylitis that diet alone seems to reduce but not cure.  I have read about some pretty intensive antibiotic protocols that could potentially help but im apprehesive to try because of side effects.  Chinese medicine intrigues me because you are saying basically that it could cure these same issues.

I apologize Zach, but those herbs and supplements are specific to me, my genetic (I'm south east Asian), where (region) and when (what time of the day) I was born (TCM diagnostic stuff) and the severity of the infection. Things that worked for me will not work with others and most likely create complications that none of us can forsee ahead of time. The dosage also varies per person.

For instance, tyw can take up to 30gr of Betaine HCL per day for 30 days straight to cure his general infection. For me, I can only take 15gr max and the duration was 3 days then 10 days (recurring UTI infections). It took me only a month to take care of staph infection, but for some others it can take up to 3 months. Tyw's is younger, taller and were born in higher latitude (country-wise on the map) than me.

Sorry but I don't want to fall into the trap of giving all-OJ-all-milk-all-sugar advice. People in forum (like RPF for instance) will interpret it differently and can often times go overboard with the advices given to them, then I'll be responsible for it when shit happens. Like that Haidut's high caffeine dosage advice.

I can only share the personal experience of it and the general methodology behind the Chinese Medicine approach compared to Ray Peat. But when it comes to specific stuff and treatment, I have to tread it carefully.

I'm sorry.

Betaine HCl is not the original form used in Chinese medicine is it?
To be honest when you respond like this it sounds like a cult of sort.
It sounds like a patch that is being used regularly enough no?

How did you diagnose staph? And other infections?
#10
I in no way wanted specific supplements so i could go out an buy them. I dont use any supplements besides red light and baking soda. I am more interested in some specifics to this TCM that i could read up on and dig around for studies based on certain herbs/supps.

If you dont want to get into specifics, thats fine. Do you have any solid stuff you could link to that goes into more detail on TCM and pathogens? Could you refer me to a qualified practitioner? Id like to look at this in more detail without spending hours reading crap looking for the gems.

Thanks!
  


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